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  1. #1
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    Default Idle timing table VS Main timing table....Dave or John?

    Is the idle timing table related to the main timing table?

    I just recently went from BC2 cams to BC3 cams and wanted to try a few things. I wanted to raise the idle timing from 15 to 20-25deg to help obtain that higher idle easier and for ease of checking timing with a light.

    I know whatever values in your idle timing table your distributor must match each other.

    If i try 25 from 15deg does this add an additional 10deg of timing to my main timing map or are the tables totally seperate?

    Thanks
    1995 200sx SE-R
    Custom 4 to 1 header, 3" VRS exhaust, Doug Fab Custom Intake Manifold w/70mm TB, 3.5" Intake w/Stack, BC3 Cams & Springs, CS cam gears, XTD lightweight flywheel, G spec pulleys
    ~Soon to be C.O.P.~

  2. #2
    NismoTronic Guy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haulin200sx View Post
    Is the idle timing table related to the main timing table?

    I just recently went from BC2 cams to BC3 cams and wanted to try a few things. I wanted to raise the idle timing from 15 to 20-25deg to help obtain that higher idle easier and for ease of checking timing with a light.

    I know whatever values in your idle timing table your distributor must match each other.

    If i try 25 from 15deg does this add an additional 10deg of timing to my main timing map or are the tables totally seperate?

    Thanks
    These tables are totally separate.

    The idle timing table is only active when the "Idle Timing" checkbox on the data screen is checked. The idle timing table is the value the engine will use as the timing value (+/-) idle error corrections and any warmup advance you have going on.

    To verify this, check the final ignition value data item in the data list or gauge window!

    As soon as you get the engine "off idle", it will un-check that box and will then move onto the main timing map.
    Last edited by JKTUNING; 07-12-12 at 08:36 AM.
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  3. #3
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    John,

    What about the old sckool method of advancing your distributor ignition timing? example: for a sr20 you would advance timing from 15 to 19/20deg.

    The correlation between the "idle timing table" and dist timing would not be correct and a 5deg difference.

    How does this make power then? Aren't you effectivly adding 5deg across the "main timing table"?

    I just want to make sure that im not adding 10deg across my main timing table if i do the JWT trick of running a higher timing in the "idle timing table"

    I will also double check under nismotronic/nissan datascan
    Last edited by Haulin200sx; 07-12-12 at 08:57 AM.
    1995 200sx SE-R
    Custom 4 to 1 header, 3" VRS exhaust, Doug Fab Custom Intake Manifold w/70mm TB, 3.5" Intake w/Stack, BC3 Cams & Springs, CS cam gears, XTD lightweight flywheel, G spec pulleys
    ~Soon to be C.O.P.~

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haulin200sx View Post
    How does this make power then? Aren't you effectivly adding 5deg across the "main timing table"?
    Yes, that is exactly the idea.
    How does this make power?
    I'll leave that up to the reader to figure out.




    However on a properly tune-able solution like Tunercode, you have absolutely no reason to do this "trick".

  5. #5
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    Right now i have my idle timing table left stock at 15deg across the table. My dist timing also matches that table at 15deg. All my adjustments have been made on the main timing table of course

    Im having trouble with my car stalling at a stop and when i have it in timing mode to set idle and timing my idle screw is all the way out now.

    I see that JWT ecu's run 20 or 25deg in the idle timing table. I was going to give this a try. Since my main timing table is already setup how id like. Do i need to subtract 10deg across my main timing map?

    I was just trying to compare this to how the old school method of advancing your timing (like if u have a stock ecu) works.
    Is this because there is 5deg difference in correlation between the 2 tables with that old method of advancing timing VS no difference in the idle timing table and dist timing of what i want to do now?
    Last edited by Haulin200sx; 07-12-12 at 09:31 AM.
    1995 200sx SE-R
    Custom 4 to 1 header, 3" VRS exhaust, Doug Fab Custom Intake Manifold w/70mm TB, 3.5" Intake w/Stack, BC3 Cams & Springs, CS cam gears, XTD lightweight flywheel, G spec pulleys
    ~Soon to be C.O.P.~

  6. #6
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    My old JWT ECU had a 25* base idle ignition timing.

    It makes the cams ultra smooth and A/C kick ass when it is in operation and I saw better mileage than what I get with my stock ECU that I swapped back in and turned back on the SAFC II settings.

    Go figure. It worked, it was a great idea and implementation Clark from JWT did.

  7. #7
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    Don't confuse idle ignition timing tables with the ignition timing recommended/used to set your distributor orientation. They are different things. Or they should be. The post below mine says otherwise?
    Last edited by BenFenner; 07-12-12 at 11:44 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haulin200sx View Post
    Right now i have my idle timing table left stock at 15deg across the table. My dist timing also matches that table at 15deg. All my adjustments have been made on the main timing table of course

    Im having trouble with my car stalling at a stop and when i have it in timing mode to set idle and timing my idle screw is all the way out now.

    I see that JWT ecu's run 20 or 25deg in the idle timing table. I was going to give this a try. Since my main timing table is already setup how id like. Do i need to subtract 10deg across my main timing map?

    I was just trying to compare this to how the old school method of advancing your timing (like if u have a stock ecu) works.
    Is this because there is 5deg difference in correlation between the 2 tables with that old method of advancing timing VS no difference in the idle timing table and dist timing of what i want to do now?
    When you place your ride in timing mode, if you change that Idle timing table to 25* you will have to match up your Distro to 25* mechanical timing.

    and dont modify your ignition Timing map as then you will have created an unwanted offset, those maps work when the TPS indicates the TB is opened.
    N14GTI-VVL - RIP - Best Qtr: 13.147 @ 99mph 1.87 60'
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  9. #9
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    ok gotcha guys. I might try the 25deg timing at idle to see how and if it improves the big cam idle.


    Im still stumped on the classic thing of advancing timing, like if you had stock car? if you advance the distro from 15 to 19. how does the timing change on the main timing table if your saying the idle timing and main timing are not related?
    1995 200sx SE-R
    Custom 4 to 1 header, 3" VRS exhaust, Doug Fab Custom Intake Manifold w/70mm TB, 3.5" Intake w/Stack, BC3 Cams & Springs, CS cam gears, XTD lightweight flywheel, G spec pulleys
    ~Soon to be C.O.P.~

  10. #10
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    If you move the distributor ahead 4 degrees for ignition timing, then that is the same as adding 4 degrees TO EVERY SINGLE MENTION OF IGNITION TIMING in the ECU EVERYWHERE.

    Anything that has anything to do with timing will now result in 4 degrees MORE than requested by the ECU. You are basically taking what the ECU is ultimately requesting for ignition timing and advancing that by 4 degrees, making it happen 4 degrees sooner than expected. Always and forever for everything.



    That is different from using a tune-able ECU and changing idle timing alone. Or main timing alone and based on TP and RPM. Or anything else timing related such as knock-based retard, etc.
    Last edited by BenFenner; 07-12-12 at 12:42 PM.

  11. #11
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    Ok, hope i got it now.

    So when the correlation between the two match, then there is ZERO degrees added to the main timing map.

    and when there is a difference in correlation between the two, then the difference is added/subtracted from the main timing table?
    1995 200sx SE-R
    Custom 4 to 1 header, 3" VRS exhaust, Doug Fab Custom Intake Manifold w/70mm TB, 3.5" Intake w/Stack, BC3 Cams & Springs, CS cam gears, XTD lightweight flywheel, G spec pulleys
    ~Soon to be C.O.P.~

  12. #12
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    All correct except that last part. It is added/subtracted from EVERYTHING having to do with timing. Not just the main timing table.


    Imagine the ECU sends out a timing value. Whatever that is. It sends it to a black box which adds (or subtracts) something to it. No matter what. And that's the timing you get.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haulin200sx View Post
    ok gotcha guys. I might try the 25deg timing at idle to see how and if it improves the big cam idle.


    Im still stumped on the classic thing of advancing timing, like if you had stock car? if you advance the distro from 15 to 19. how does the timing change on the main timing table if your saying the idle timing and main timing are not related?
    if bens explanaition isnt clear...

    how the ecu and the engine calibrates timing values is through the idle table.
    if the table states it to be 15* then the mechanical timing that is confirmed using your timing light should be 15*

    by advancing your mechanical timing (bumping your distro) to say 19* degrees, you would have added 4* degrees to every timing adjustment the ecu would communicate to the engine.

    hope that helps
    N14GTI-VVL - RIP - Best Qtr: 13.147 @ 99mph 1.87 60'
    S13240SX-VVL+T
    K6 GSX-R600
    ---> Z33

  14. #14
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    thats how i've always understood the dist timing to work. what you advance over the stock value of 15 you add/subtract to all timing values BUT if i try this 25deg of distributor timing at idle how is it not adding 10deg to all timing values then?

    Is this because my 25deg of distributor timing would match the 25deg timing in the idle table?

    Do you guys up the idle timing on big cam engines or just leave stock?

    Thanks for all the help guys
    Last edited by Haulin200sx; 07-12-12 at 01:30 PM.
    1995 200sx SE-R
    Custom 4 to 1 header, 3" VRS exhaust, Doug Fab Custom Intake Manifold w/70mm TB, 3.5" Intake w/Stack, BC3 Cams & Springs, CS cam gears, XTD lightweight flywheel, G spec pulleys
    ~Soon to be C.O.P.~

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    the table is used when the TPS is in the closed state (ie Idling)

    when the TPS is open the 16x16 timing maps are used....

    John said that earlier... post #2
    N14GTI-VVL - RIP - Best Qtr: 13.147 @ 99mph 1.87 60'
    S13240SX-VVL+T
    K6 GSX-R600
    ---> Z33

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haulin200sx View Post
    thats how i've always understood the dist timing to work. what you advance over the stock value of 15 you add/subtract to all timing values BUT if i try this 25deg of distributor timing at idle how is it not adding 10deg to all timing values then?
    because you synchronized the computers timing value with the mechanical timing on the distributor...

    by setting the mechanical timing to 25* doesnt mean the ecu cant/wont be able to have the distributor fire at 10* before the piston hits top dead center...
    N14GTI-VVL - RIP - Best Qtr: 13.147 @ 99mph 1.87 60'
    S13240SX-VVL+T
    K6 GSX-R600
    ---> Z33

  17. #17
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    So when the mech timing matches the timing in the "idle timing table" then there is ZERO addition/subtraction to the rest of the timing tables.

    When there is a difference between the two tables, then thats when u will see an addition/subraction to the rest of the timing tables.
    1995 200sx SE-R
    Custom 4 to 1 header, 3" VRS exhaust, Doug Fab Custom Intake Manifold w/70mm TB, 3.5" Intake w/Stack, BC3 Cams & Springs, CS cam gears, XTD lightweight flywheel, G spec pulleys
    ~Soon to be C.O.P.~

  18. #18
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    I was in the same boat as you Hualin200sx.

    After my Tomie 256/256 11.5mm Lift PonCam install my car likes to idle smooth around 950rpm at 20deg timing.

    My tuner has set the idle at 20deg at the CAS/Distro and on the Standalone ECU (HKS Vpro) also at 20deg this is for the IDLE MAP. They both match! Thus no Offset.

    As for the timing map the Standalone ECU (HKS Vpro) has full control of whatever the tuner wants it to do. Again NO +/- (offset) Not based on whatever the idle timing is set at.

    **If your ECU is stock and you mess with the CAS/Distro say advance +/- 5 deg then yes it will advance/retard the whole map, because its STOCK ecu which is based at 15 deg.

    Hope that helps.

    Steve.

  19. #19
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    I do believe you're right Haulin200sx, but Dave or John will have to confirm.

    I don't know if Tunercode has the same "ignition timing set mode" that the stock ECUs have. This removes all timing trims and locks to some known timing. (I guess it used the idle timing table?)
    Last edited by BenFenner; 07-12-12 at 05:15 PM.

  20. #20
    NismoTronic Guy
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    OK, there is a lot of stuff in here that is definitely confusing.

    Let's simplify this a bit.

    The "IDLE TIMING" table is ONLY USED when the throttled is closed and the car is at an IDLE .. this has NO CORRELATION to the "MAIN TIMING" table. They are two separate tables and are used independent of each other.

    If you add 5 degrees to every value in the "IDLE TIMING" table it will ONLY affect those values .. it DOES NOT add 5 degrees to the "MAIN TIMING" table.

    So to do this properly, you would do as follows.

    1) Set your "IDLE TIMING" table values in NismoTronic to 20 degrees.
    2) Check the Timing Mode option to lock the timing value from any corrections .. you can view the "FINAL IGNITION VALUE" in the data screen to confirm the timing that the ECU is currently requesting.
    3) SYNC your mechanical timing to the value that you are seeing in the "FINAL IGNITION VALUE" log item on the data screen .. if you set it to 20 in the first step, then you should see 20 as the final ignition value and then should set your distributor to 20* at the crank pulley.
    4) UN-Check the timing mode check box

    NOW .. All of the values in the "IDLE TIMING TABLE" and "MAIN TABLE" should now match what the engine is actually seeing.

    For example, if you put 24 in the "IDLE" table then you should see 24* at the crank pulley with a timing light (without adjusting the distributor!)

    Moral of the story is sync the ignition at idle with whatever you are seeing as your final ignition value with the "Set Timing/Idle Mode" ON. Then all of the values in ALL of the tables will match.. so you can adjust the IDLE timing INDEPENDENT of the main table.. if you are just trying to smooth out your idle.
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    thanks for all the input everyone. I fully understand what your saying about the two tables. Thats how i always thought it worked.

    I was just getting confused. when i thought back to what if you had a bone stock se-r and were to advance the timing from the stock 15 to 19 for some free powa.. this is adding 4deg to the total timing. but how? is this because there is a 4deg offset in timing between the idle timing table and mech/ dist timing?

    So if your "idle timing table" values, be whatever they are: 15deg or even 50deg. If they match your mech/dist timing, this equals no offset. So no change to the total timing.

    Sorry to confuse everyone hahaha.. I think Djcobra and BenFenner got what i was trying to ask.
    1995 200sx SE-R
    Custom 4 to 1 header, 3" VRS exhaust, Doug Fab Custom Intake Manifold w/70mm TB, 3.5" Intake w/Stack, BC3 Cams & Springs, CS cam gears, XTD lightweight flywheel, G spec pulleys
    ~Soon to be C.O.P.~

  22. #22
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    The reason turning the distributor adds ignition timing, is because you're ALSO turning the Cam Angle Sensor. This makes the ECU think the engine is further on in its rotation than it actually is, and it tricks the ECU into initiating timing early.

  23. #23
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    Default Idle timing table VS Main timing table....Dave or John?

    Well gotta say i some questions that have gotten answered through this thread gotta love the Nissan life

 

 

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