Originally Posted by
91sentragti-r his physical description that you are referencing left out all the flaws of the header...Here was the physical description from the original sale thread:
"Good shape, i'd say 7/10. No holes or rust."
And the image just for completeness:
https://i.imgur.com/TIwDXur.jpg
Originally Posted by
91sentragti-r he never mentioned any of the flaws on the physical description..First off, I think we can agree the header doesn't have any [undesired] holes, and has negligible rust.
He did not mention the dents or scrapes specifically, nor the welded protective plates. We all understand this is the issue. Let me say that again. We completely understand why you're upset and agree that you are justified in giving negative iTrader feedback and opening this feedback thread to tell us about your negative experience with this seller.
However, the item was sold as used, for half price, and was described as "7/10". One man's 7/10 is another's 3/10 in this case. While not completely forthright, this is a seller doing their best to paint their item in a good light by glossing over the details. This is common in sales, and something you need to get used to if you're going to deal sight unseen, seller unknown. If you haven't learned this lesson by now after the issues you've had with sellers, I don't know what else to tell you. This is not Amazon.com or the like. These are used items with incomplete descriptions being sold by people with varying degrees of integrity and interest in their own reputation.
On one end of the spectrum there are sellers who provide full disclosure on the most minute of details and then on the other end there are complete shysters. There may be a thin line in the middle of that spectrum where a seller crosses over to The Dark Side, but I don't feel Storm88000 has crossed that line. He may be approaching it, but he hasn't crossed it. There will be those members who don't want to do business with him based on his treatment of you, and the likelihood that they will be treated the same. There will also be a significant portion of members who don't think the sale went poorly and would have been okay buying the item sold as it was advertised. Heck, we've even had a member offer to buy it for the advertised price after seeing all of the images of the condition.
Originally Posted by
91sentragti-r also he never posted any of the pics where the damage was visible..Same as the physical description, the image posted was to show the best possible view and leave out details on condition. This was absolutely deserving of a negative iTrader rating and understandably fueled this thread. Now that we as a community know this is how Storm88000 advertises his items, we will be MUCH better able to deal with him (or not) in future sales. I thank you very much for that, as should all of the members here. You have done us a great service and it was at your own expense.
I was planning on posting a better organized official response to this matter, but it looks like I'm already halfway there, so I will continue. This post can be considered the official response from the forum staff. Not the final word mind you (there is always room for discussion) but as of now this is how it is shaking out from the staff's perspective.
The way we see it, this was a matter of a buyer being lead to have quality expectations for an item that the item could not meet. This was
mostly due to the seller glossing over details in the condition of the item (hence the legitimate negative feedback), but in such a way that would constitute lies of omission at best, but nothing overtly dishonest. The seller provided all of the required information to sell the item (and then some). The description of the item including the image was not so off base that it would run afoul of truth in advertising expectations. The seller worked with you to a reasonable amount after the sale when you displayed your dissatisfaction with the item. For these reasons, there is no punishment in the works for the seller.
Furthermore, I wouldn't demand (with new rules) anything more of our selling members, and I don't think many else would either. We as a community, and myself in particular, take rules and rule-making very seriously. By nature, rules are restrictive, and thus should not be applied lightly or without a very strong reason. We feel this way because we like to foster an environment of freedom above all else, believing this freedom leads to fairness, inclusiveness, allows for self-determination, and results in just treatment of all.
While we're on the subject of rules. You suggested a new rule about physical descriptions. Maybe I understood this rule proposal incorrectly. I thought you meant you wanted us to require a physical description. Maybe I was jumping to that conclusion. Maybe you wanted to require that if a physical description is posted, that it is required to be accurate? That is actually a law in the US and probably most other countries (truth in advertising laws) so it goes without saying we hold our members to that standard. Maybe you're thinking of some different type of rule? If you'd like to propose a new rule that you think would be appropriate, you are welcome to do that in
the appropriate thread. We can talk about it more there.
So again, no infractions or banning or anything is planned for the seller. As for returns and shipping costs and whatnot... All individual/personal sales (versus buying from an established business) of used items on this forum are assumed to be final (no returns) and with no guarantees. It is nice when members offer those services (and the price can reflect that) but it is not required, nor should it ever be assumed. Without any agreements in place, this is the natural state of a sale, and thus we don't feel we would have a leg to stand on if we tried to demand the seller provide some sort of partial or full refund, or help you ship the item back to him if he's offered a return option after the fact.
I realize you have had a bad experience with Storm88000, and I thank you for bringing it to the attention of the community. I'm sorry the sale hasn't gone the way you'd hoped so far and that you fell into the gap between the type of sale we love to see on the forum and the type of sale that is allowed on the forum. This is exactly what the iTrader rating and feedback section is for and you've used them wisely. I hope the seller does the right thing and you two can come to an amicable resolution.
@Storm88000, I urge you to do right by
@91sentragti-r and provide him reasonable redress for this matter.
As for the (retaliatory?) iTrader rating and negative feedback thread given and created by Storm88000 against the buyer, we haven't decided if those will be allowed to stick around or not. Stay tuned for that decision.
Also, I'd like to point out the staff is not happy with Storm88000 for editing, deleting, and removing other references to the item in his other threads on the forum which showed damage to the item and better showed the condition of the item after the sale seemed to go awry. And while we're not happy about this, we realize this is within a member's ability as members own the copyright to their posts (something maybe members have forgotten over the course of time) and are welcome to edit them indefinitely as they see fit.
The staff do not like when actual sale threads get edited after an item is sold. Often we see sellers editing out the description of the item entirely and replacing it with "SOLD" text, then closing the thread. We would like this practice to stop, and may be able to come up with a solution that should work. If we can, we'll discuss it with the forum at that time.
I would also like to add a final note when bringing poor transactions to the attention of the members. Please take a step back, drop the emotions, gather the facts, and organize your case the best you can so the membership can digest it. The members and the forum staff will do our best to follow along, but if it is too jumbled, or too long to make sense of, or filled with unnecessary details and tangents, you won't be doing yourself any favors. It will benefit you in the long run, I promise.