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  1. #1
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    Default T2 Turbo Manifold Testing: Avenir vs GTiR vs ASP VET Manifold

    Ever since posting this thread, I've been curious about how much power GTiR manifolds make over Avenir's. Also, I was curious to see a comparison to a much better flowing manifold: ASP tubular VET Manifold.

    Top to bottom: ASP VET, GTiR, Avenir



    Top to bottom: ASP VET, Avenir, GTiR



    Avenir Manifold
    Installed:


    Head view:


    Real flow restriction:



    GTiR Manifold
    Installed:


    Head view:


    Major flow restrictions:




    Found it much more painful to fit a 3" intake on the GTiR manifold, it hits the trans.



    ASP VET Manifold
    Installed:


    Head View:


    No real flow restrictions, very good merge collector compared to the other two manifolds too.




    Finally the results... keep in mind these are done using Virtual Dyno on same stretch of road.
    Setup: Roller Rocker, GT2860RS "Disco Potato", 3" Exhaust


    I'm really surprised that GTiR manifold was not only more painful to install, more painful to attach a 3" intake to (or have a 3" comp housing), but also didn't make any real power over the Avenir.

    Perhaps what surprised me the most is the fact that a much better designed ASP manifold didn't make all that much power over the other two. I think this is because of very low overlap stock Roller Rocker cams, thus T2 turbo restrictions still supersede the manifold restrictions.
    Last edited by Vadim; 08-09-15 at 06:36 PM.
     
    00 G20t KH3- Loller Rocker + GT28 + 6 Speed
    05 Legacy GT - Big 16G @13psi + Up Pipe + Downpipe
    12 Outback 2.5i Premium - Stock

  2. #2
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    Good peice of work. Thanks for putting n the work
    91 b13 ve-t strapped
    99' p11 touring edition, honda gsr 4:1 header.

  3. #3
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    Wanted to cross post Charle's post from G20.net, which explains on why ASP didn't make all that much more power over the other two. Simply put exhaust to intake pressure ratio, the lower it is (by having low boost), the less power is lost due to inefficient manifold designs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snickers View Post
    I did a similar test when I built those tubular manifolds. I did find the same thing at the lower HP levels. Even if you install some S3R cams the power different wont be muh. But if you cranked the boost up to say 15-16psi you will see more of a difference. I did a comparison with the GTiR and the other tubular manifold an on a DPT setup with S4's at 15psi there was a 15whp difference at full boost (3500) and about 30whp at peak power plus a smoother graph. One of the other guys that bought another tubular VET did a 2871 setup on a VE-T and had about 60whp difference I think IIRC.

    Either way, thanks for the results. Throw some cams in and crank the boost
    00 G20t KH3- Loller Rocker + GT28 + 6 Speed
    05 Legacy GT - Big 16G @13psi + Up Pipe + Downpipe
    12 Outback 2.5i Premium - Stock

  4. #4
    Endless Spinning
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    Hey Vadim,

    Very surprising results! The Avenir makes more power than the GTI-R until 6500rpm?! Whaa?!

    What A/R do you have for the turbine housing on the Disco?

    p.s. I plan on picking up the water lines this week lol

    p.p.s 8psi? wtf? turn up the boost! 12psi at least. Don't be afraid of the boost. I have a good friend here in KC who ran a 2860 on a stock roller for a couple years @ 17psi daily and 22psi w/'race' gas. Engine still going strong when he sold it.

    -G
    Last edited by gomba; 11-03-13 at 11:59 PM.
    '00 SE
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  5. #5
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    Awesome job testing! I suspect that a big reason your not seeing larger differences is, well, because a set up is only good as its worst restriction ... if you had a better flowing exhaust elbow I think there would have been more variances
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  6. #6
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    Very cool man... Thanks for doing all the work to get this comparison. This just shows you that keeping it cheap and simple with smaller setups is perfectly fine.
    93 b13 was 202whp na sr20ve
    Now vet pte6265 sidewinder big boy parts
    Fin

  7. #7
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    As always - awesome info !
    Respect!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by gomba View Post
    Hey Vadim,

    Very surprising results! The Avenir makes more power than the GTI-R until 6500rpm?! Whaa?!

    What A/R do you have for the turbine housing on the Disco?

    p.s. I plan on picking up the water lines this week lol

    p.p.s 8psi? wtf? turn up the boost! 12psi at least. Don't be afraid of the boost. I have a good friend here in KC who ran a 2860 on a stock roller for a couple years @ 17psi daily and 22psi w/'race' gas. Engine still going strong when he sold it.

    -G
    GTiR had a fatter power band though, I wouldn't read into the graphs that much though, real dyno would show much more realistic numbers. Virtual dyno is good for giving you a side by side comparison mainly for peak numbers.

    I had a 5 psi wastegate on this this thing, plan was to do boost by gear with NEMU, hence low wastegate PSI. Since I'm done with this car, no point in cranking up.

    Quote Originally Posted by cory View Post
    Awesome job testing! I suspect that a big reason your not seeing larger differences is, well, because a set up is only good as its worst restriction ... if you had a better flowing exhaust elbow I think there would have been more variances
    Going divorced would yield even more gains, but the elbow is not THAT bad. Plenty of people run 300whp on it still.

    Quote Originally Posted by se200 View Post
    Very cool man... Thanks for doing all the work to get this comparison. This just shows you that keeping it cheap and simple with smaller setups is perfectly fine.
    Yup that's what I noticed. KISS for simple setups.
    00 G20t KH3- Loller Rocker + GT28 + 6 Speed
    05 Legacy GT - Big 16G @13psi + Up Pipe + Downpipe
    12 Outback 2.5i Premium - Stock

  9. #9
    RR B15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vadim View Post


    I'm really surprised that GTiR manifold was not only more painful to install, more painful to attach a 3" intake to (or have a 3" comp housing), but also didn't make any real power over the Avenir.

    Perhaps what surprised me the most is the fact that a much better designed ASP manifold didn't make all that much power over the other two. I think this is because of very low overlap stock Roller Rocker cams, thus T2 turbo restrictions still supersede the manifold restrictions.
    Great test, but it looks like the VET manifold was quite a bit richer. May be the reason for less power?
    Last edited by Vadim; 12-22-16 at 09:34 AM. Reason: Fixing the image

  10. #10
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    Could be, I didn't monkey with the tune between the manifold runs because I wanted to have one less variable.
    00 G20t KH3- Loller Rocker + GT28 + 6 Speed
    05 Legacy GT - Big 16G @13psi + Up Pipe + Downpipe
    12 Outback 2.5i Premium - Stock

  11. #11
    Performance+Plus
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    Tubular dude

  12. #12
    SUPER MOD BIZNATCHES
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    Honestly, the bigger runners don't net any results unless you have enough turbo to fill them with air. If you port out and extrude hone the stock manifold you can get some good gains on it. The cost to do that is less than the cost for a tubular manifold by far.

    Brent
    1993 NX2000 -- Slate Grey Metallic, a few mods.

  13. #13
    Control First
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    Has anyone been able to bring up the pictures /graphs on this thread in a while? I have both a GTI-r and Avenir manifold. I really want to see these but not sure if I'm doing something wrong. Are they saved anywhere else?
    Modify it

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by NI SER-1 View Post
    Has anyone been able to bring up the pictures /graphs on this thread in a while? I have both a GTI-r and Avenir manifold. I really want to see these but not sure if I'm doing something wrong. Are they saved anywhere else?
    Just updated the links to all of the pictures to my new host.
    00 G20t KH3- Loller Rocker + GT28 + 6 Speed
    05 Legacy GT - Big 16G @13psi + Up Pipe + Downpipe
    12 Outback 2.5i Premium - Stock

  15. #15
    Control First
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    THANK YOU!
    This should be a sticky The information is to important to lose. I'm going to save this to Word in case it disappears again.
    Modify it

  16. #16
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    One day I'll upload these to the forum, but since I cross post to other forums, it makes it difficult linking pics to a non neutral location.

    I will move this thread to the information library though.
    Last edited by Vadim; 08-09-15 at 09:13 PM.
    00 G20t KH3- Loller Rocker + GT28 + 6 Speed
    05 Legacy GT - Big 16G @13psi + Up Pipe + Downpipe
    12 Outback 2.5i Premium - Stock

  17. #17
    Control First
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    Which J-pipe did you use? Or did you use an Avenir J-pipe with the Avenir manifold, GTiR J-pipe with the GtiR manifold?
    Modify it

  18. #18
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    I used T25 J-pipe with all of those manifolds.
    00 G20t KH3- Loller Rocker + GT28 + 6 Speed
    05 Legacy GT - Big 16G @13psi + Up Pipe + Downpipe
    12 Outback 2.5i Premium - Stock

  19. #19
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    nice little thread i stumbled upon

    now i wonder if a $300 jpipe upgrade is worth it on a lower boost ~300whp setup?
    probably not

    fwiw there's a guy selling divorced pulsar jpipes on ebay.au
    but no guarantee it clears the compressor

 

 

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