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  1. #1
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    Default How To: Crank pulley -- Oil Pump -- Spacer (all common combinations explained!)

    I was just like you 6 months ago. I had no idea what the difference was between the VE and DE crank pulleys. I had no idea what the Gspec spacer was all about and why he sold it. I had no idea what the differences were between the VE and DE oil pumps when it came to their dimensions.

    I learned very quickly about all of that stuff when Ashtonsser and I had trouble upgrading our DE engines to the VE oil pump. Ashtonsser did a decent job explaining the problem in one of his threads and I had planned on doing the same in my build thread with tons of pictures I'd taken.

    It's become quite obvious now that we need a detailed How To thread about this part of our engines. I haven't got around to organizing my pictures yet but I wasn't going to let that stop me from shedding some light on this area for others. I've made a technical drawing that should explain most everything you need to know about crank pulleys, oil pumps and spacers in any combination you can imagine. For our intents and purposes, the stock VE crank pulley and the aluminum Gspec pulley are the same part. I know the Gspec pulley has a smaller diameter than the OEM VE crank pulley, but we are ignoring that in my diagram.
    Also, the GTi-R oil pump gear is the same dimension as the VE oil pump gear so if you're looking to use a GTi-R oil pump keep that in mind.

    If you have some special combination of parts I've left off the drawing please don't hesitate to ask about it. Let me know what specific parts you plan on using and I'll tell you if it will work or not, and what issues you might run into.

    I plan on posting the detailed pictures I took later on. Look for those in post #2 when I get the time.




    Here is a picture and link for the new style of Gspec (Greg Vogel) oil pump spacer.

    G Spec Performance Oil Pump Drive / Pulley Spacer, SR20




    This just in:

    The Gspec aluminum VE crank pulley can't be used with a GTi-R oil pump (front cover). There is a bump on the front cover that doesn't clear the pulley. You will need to purchase the Gspec aluminum GTi-R pulley instead.

    Pictures and information courtesy of drifterx27.





    Another great picture for this thread from Greg Vogel:
    Greg's aluminum VE oil pump drive collar on the left shows how long the VE collar is compared to the DE oil pump drive collar on the right. The spacer he sells makes up the difference in length bringing the DE collar up to the same length as the VE one.
    Last edited by BenFenner; 05-23-11 at 05:26 PM.

  2. #2
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    This is taken from my build thread. It explains the problem with the old Gspec spacer and why a new one was designed.





    After tightening the crank bolt down some the crankshaft would not turn.
    Dan and I sat around wondering what was going on for a while. I also remembered ashtonsser having trouble with his GTi-R oil pump and Greg's pulley spacer. So we took the pulley off and did some inspecting.

    What do you know? The stock DE oil pump drivel collar is slightly too short so it doesn't fully penetrate the VE oil pump drive gear. It is maybe 1-2mm too short so when the pulley is tightened down the spacer presses against the oil pump drive gear is two places forcing it against the back of the oil pump housing. If you tighten it down with an impact gun you'll likely push the gear through the back of the oil pump housing. If you crank the engine over like ashtonsser did you're certainly going to ruin the oil pump.

    The engine is not happy.






    Luckily I caught the problem before any real damage was done because I was using hand tools at the time.
    Here you can see the oil pump drive gear is 1mm or 2mm farther out than the oil pump drive collar that is inside it. You can also see the mark where the Gspec spacer pressed against the oil pump drive gear and left a little aluminum behind.


    Here is the other side where the spacer made contact as well.






    Here is the spacer. You can clearly see the indentation that was made when I tried to tighten everything together.






    I took the spacer over to the grinder and solved the problem.


    I called Greg Vogel at Gspec and talked to him and told him about the issue. He'd already been through this with ashtonsser so he knew what was going on, and he was in fact in the process of modifying all of his spacers by doing a similar modification that I had. If you buy a spacer from Greg is should look like my modified one, not a perfect circle.



    Checking for clearance in the oil pump.


    The engine seemed happy again after this mod.








    Dan's cleaning up the Grey RTV on the front cover before putting it on again.


    Here is the modified spacer installed and compared to the oil pump drive collar.


    It doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to fit.







    At this point in the game, I should have taken the chain oiler pin out and put it back in with some red loc-tite. But I'm an idiot and didn't know about that problem/tendency with the VE oil pump so I left it alone.
    Last edited by BenFenner; 05-26-12 at 12:45 PM.

  3. #3
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    Good write up just enough info for anyone that is interested in doing the work by itself..
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  4. #4
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    Dude you are such a valuable asset to this forum and you don't even know it. Thanks for all that you do man.
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    Once you go turbo you'll never go back!!! :racer:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrildo View Post
    Dude you are such a valuable asset to this forum and you don't even know it. Thanks for all that you do man.
    this

    Ben, you have the mind of an engineer
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  6. #6
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    Updated first post with additional information about the GTi-R oil pump / front cover.
    Thanks to drifterx27 for the pics and info. Ashtonsser also corroborated the findings.
    Last edited by BenFenner; 12-08-09 at 07:59 AM.

  7. #7
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    Got a question Ben, would a VE pump simply bolt onto a gti-r motor with the oem gti-r pulley?

  8. #8
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    - Ben is the old style spacer even available? It shouldn't be.
    Bend But Don't Break
    93 SE-R Project 2Door - 2.0VE Gio tune - built 2.3VE up next.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SR20GTi-R View Post
    NA is a thinking man's game, alot of people dont have the stomach to play NA.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickr View Post
    Got a question Ben, would a VE pump simply bolt onto a gti-r motor with the oem gti-r pulley?
    Good question. Yes, I believe that everything would work out perfectly with this setup. The only thing I'm unsure on is the pickup tube diameter. You'd probably want to just go ahead and use a VE pick-up tube just in case. Although the GTi-R tube might bolt up and be just as wide.
    Last edited by BenFenner; 12-08-09 at 01:02 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR-4Door-SR20DET View Post
    - Ben is the old style spacer even available? It shouldn't be.
    About 4 months ago I talked to Greg and he was in the middle of modifying all of the spacers he had in stock to the new style. If you bought a spacer from him in the past 3 months or so you should have got the new style. You're correct, the old style is not available any more, and the new style is the only one you can get from Gspec (for good reason).

    I've included the info about the old style spacer because there are likely a few dozen of them floating around that might hit the secondary market. If you get one, you'll know what you have.

  11. #11
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    Second post updated with a snippet from my build thread and real life pictures.

  12. #12
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    Added Greg's sweet picture of the two different lengths of oil pump drive collars to the first post.

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    wat would be the issue with using a VE oil pump wit DE UR pulley on a DE engine with a DE oil pump drive collar. from your diagram it seems like the pulley wont line up with the other pulleys

    but if I run a VE pulley with VE oil pump and a DE oil pump drive collar it also would not line up right. I would have to get a VE drive collar right? how easy is that to get?

    can I use a DE pulley with a VE drive collar and VE oil pump with the spacer?
    Last edited by Reedom; 01-23-10 at 12:35 AM.

  14. #14
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    Hey Reedom I can't believe I left you hanging on those questions back in January. I'll send you a PM and point you here for the answers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reedom View Post
    wat would be the issue with using a VE oil pump wit DE UR pulley on a DE engine with a DE oil pump drive collar. from your diagram it seems like the pulley wont line up with the other pulleys
    There are two problems with this. First off you have the problem Ashton and I ran into where the DE oil pump drive collar is not long enough to fully protrude from the VE oil pump so when you go to tighten everything down the pulley will crush into the oil pump inner gear and that will ruin the oil pump. The inner gear will crush into the back of the oil pump housing and you'll destroy the oil pump housing. If you turn the engine like Ashton did you'll ruin the entire pump assembly.

    The second problem is that even if things didn't get crushed, you'd have the pulley misalignment problem because the DE UR pulley (just like the sotck DE pulley) has the wrong "offset" and has too much material.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reedom View Post
    but if I run a VE pulley with VE oil pump and a DE oil pump drive collar it also would not line up right.
    Correct. The pulley will not line up correctly in this situation either. This is why the spacer exists, so you can have the correct pulley alignment. Also without the spacer if you tightened things down you would destroy the VE oil pump as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reedom View Post
    I would have to get a VE drive collar right? how easy is that to get?
    You would have to get the VE drive collar, or you can get the spacer from Gspec. The drive collars don't seem too hard to come by. I've seen a few for sale now and again. However the spacer from Gspec is always in stock and much easier to get a hold of. It is cheaper too. The only tiny advantage to the VE collar is that it is all aluminum so it weighs a few grams less.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reedom View Post
    can I use a DE pulley with a VE drive collar and VE oil pump with the spacer?
    No, that would be too much material. You will want to use either the VE drive collar or the DE drive collar with the spacer. The spacer basically turns the DE drive collar into a VE drive collar. Take a look at this picture to see what I mean. The spacer just makes the DE collar the same length as the VE collar.

  15. #15
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    I'm confused Ben, to run my DE UR pulley on my VE, do I need to machine the pulley or "...use either the VE drive collar or the DE drive collar with the spacer." ?
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  16. #16
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    Sorry for the confusion. I don't think I've addressed your specific combination directly. I did show why it won't work in the diagram. Go look at the "DE pulley on the VE engine" section. The DE pulley on the VE engine makes it so the pulleys don't line up properly. Everything combined is too long.

    There are two ways to correct this.

    1) Have the DE pulley machined down approximately 7/16" or 11.1125mm (or ask Greg how thick his spacer is to find out the proper dimension) and you'll be all set.

    2) Get a DE oil pump drive collar and install that (remove the VE collar first) in the engine and have two slots machined into your DE pulley about 2mm deep to make it look like the face of Greg's new style spacer.


    Your third option is to just buy a VE pulley. That will work too obviously. =]

  17. #17
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    Thanks for clearing that up. This is a very informative thread. Props to you!
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  18. #18
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    So I have VVL head swap on my s14 rwd det with det collar and spec spacer and VE pump. I want to run a fwd ati pulley so the timing marks line up. What do I need to do to make this happen? Will the belts for alternator and ps lineup?

  19. #19
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    Sorry for the late reply. I never noticed your post until now. That might be beyond the scope of this thread and my knowledge. If I had to guess, you could use the FWD ATI damper with your current setup and it would work fine as far as the oil pump clearance is concerned, and it should line up the belts properly. However, that's just a guess.
    If you could find out the "offset" of your RWD DET pulley and compare it to FWD pulley you'd have all you need. If they are the same (and I think they are) then I think you should be golden.

  20. #20
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    Lightbulb Gspec lightweight pulley vs UR lightweight pulley

    I figured I would dig up my extra pulleys and take some pics to add to this thread. I'll be able to take pics of a stock DE pulley and a stock VE pulley as well to compare and post if that's ok Ben?



    ^BACK SIDE

    Gspec pulley on left and UR pulley on the right. You can see how the UR pulley extrudes out more than the Gspec pulley in the pic. So from what I see, if I took both pulleys to a machine shop, they should be able to measure the extruded part of the UR pulley and machine it down to look like the Gspec pulley. After that, it should be plug and play without anything else needed.



    ^FRONT SIDE

    In the pic you can see how the UR pulley has a indentation and the Gspec pulley is flush. I'm not sure if this affects anything with the nut securing the pulley to the crank.



    Gspec on top, UR pulley on bottom. UR pulley outer diameter is smaller.



    Gspec on top, UR on bottom. The inner diameter of the pulleys are the same size.



    ^Gspec on the left, UR on the right. The pulleys have the same overall height and the distance from the inner face and outer edge measurements are about the same on each side just by looking at them.
    Last edited by MR-4Door-SR20DET; 02-11-11 at 11:27 AM.
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  21. #21
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    Reese, I had no idea the UR pulley had that recessed section where the bolt secures it to the crank on the front side. That changes some of the advice I gave you a little bit. I'll call you for the third time just to make sure I haven't confused you any more.

    That first picture you posted shows the difference pretty well. The DE one on the right has the mating surface up higher than the VE pulley on the left. That's what you'll be milling down if you want the DE pulley to work for the VE application.

    You can also easily see why Greg had the pulley made the way he did. He had the pulley made to the VE pulley dimensions for use with VE engines and then provides a little spacer to stack on top of it to make it match the DE pulley dimensions for use with DE engines. Much more economical than making two different designs.
    Last edited by BenFenner; 02-09-11 at 11:10 AM.

  22. #22
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    Default GTi-R pumps

    Hi there,

    New member from Australia. I am in the process of building a NA SR20 for a rally car and have struck a small problem in my build relating to oil pumps and pulleys.

    General spec:
    S13 Silvia Rwd engine (high port)
    SR16VE pistons
    head work
    BC inlet valves
    cams, adjustable cam gears
    Quad throttle bodies (matched)

    I was advised to buy a GTi-R oil pump and cover as we planned to run increased bearing clearances (big end and mains), but have now struck the problem of what pulley to use.

    Is the GTi-R pump/cover the same as the VE one?
    Is it a case of running a VE pulley (with spacer)?

    If so, how well does the additional accessories line up (only worried about water pump, alternator and PS pump).

    Sorry if this seems a bit noddy, but this is holding up the build process. Any advice would be appreciated.

    Cheers
    Greg

  23. #23
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    - Thanks for your help Ben. I added that extra pic we talked about to post #20.
    Bend But Don't Break
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    Quote Originally Posted by SR20GTi-R View Post
    NA is a thinking man's game, alot of people dont have the stomach to play NA.

  24. #24
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    Yah, I believe the outer pulley for the UR is smaller than the G spec so it will under drive the alternator and A/C compressor at slower speeds. I would imagine the inner pulley is the same diameter (because if it got any smaller it would interfere with the oil pump bulge) so the power steering and water pump would be driven the same speed with either pulley.

    To be 100% sure the DE UR pulley will work with the VE oil pump once you get it machined down, you might want to measure the inside diameter of the UR inner pulley versus the Gspec inner pulley to make sure they both have the same clearance for the oil pump bulge.

  25. #25
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    Update post #20 again with more photos.

    Quote Originally Posted by macakin View Post
    I've been using a machined UR pulley on my VE for maybe 2 years. I just took the two pulleys to the shop and explained them that I needed the UR pulley to be like the VE pulley, they measured how much they ad to take off, and it got done. I believe they took off like 1/8 of an inch, can't remember for sure.
    ^I'll do this like @macakin did.
    Last edited by MR-4Door-SR20DET; 02-11-11 at 11:36 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SR20GTi-R View Post
    NA is a thinking man's game, alot of people dont have the stomach to play NA.

  26. #26
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    I've updated the main post to include a picture of Greg's (new style) spacer from his web site and link to buy it.

    G Spec Performance Oil Pump Drive / Pulley Spacer, SR20

    Last edited by BenFenner; 05-23-11 at 05:28 PM.

  27. #27
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    I decided to use a GSpec crank pulley instead of having the DE pulley modified.
    Bend But Don't Break
    93 SE-R Project 2Door - 2.0VE Gio tune - built 2.3VE up next.
    93 XE-R Project 4Door - DE+T - Money Pit.
    Building N/A and Boost, the best of both worlds.
    Quote Originally Posted by SR20GTi-R View Post
    NA is a thinking man's game, alot of people dont have the stomach to play NA.

  28. #28
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    Whatever gets the job done man.

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    So I think I understand what works and what doesn't between the different combinations but one thing I'm not certain about is the oil pickup. I'm looking to do a VE oil pump setup on my W10 DET and was wondering if the DET pickup would work with a full VE setup (oil pump, drive collar, pulley) or would I have to use a VE oil pickup, or is there any difference at all between them lol.

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    Could I have the correct setup to use the RWD Sr20det crank with VVL Oil pump and RWD Sr20det Crankpulley...

    Thanks in advance
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  31. #31
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    blo0d I can't say for sure not having any measurements for a DET oil pump drive collar.

    Does anyone know the length of the DET oil pump drive collar? If it is long enough to stick out past the oil pump drive, then you're in good shape. The next question is if the DET pulley will physically clear all of the protrusions on the VE oil pump. My guess is it should, but that's tentative.
    Last edited by BenFenner; 02-20-13 at 05:05 PM.

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    crash course, since this topic has come up a bit and your thread has more interest I think it is time for a VE pick-up tube How To.

    I'll get on that ASAP.

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    Hey Ben where's all the pics?'m going to be needing this thread in a few weeks when I do my build.
    Once you go turbo you'll never go back!!! :racer:

  34. #34
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    Pics missing from post #2 will get restored in the next couple minutes. Let me get on that.

  35. #35
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    ok thanks.
    Once you go turbo you'll never go back!!! :racer:

  36. #36
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    Pics should be back. Let me know if any are missing.

  37. #37
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    It might just be my work PC but every pic from post 2 is dead
    Once you go turbo you'll never go back!!! :racer:

  38. #38
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    Try hard-refreshing the page?
    Can anyone else confirm pics in post #2 are all gone? I am seeing them...

    (They are hosted on Facebook, so I wouldn't be surprised if they were blocked at work.)
    Last edited by BenFenner; 05-26-12 at 02:03 PM.

  39. #39
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    now i have a ve pump, ve spacer, ve pulley, ve pick up. i wanted to install this on my de. from reading i should be good because im using the ve spacer, if i was to use the de spacer i would need a gspec spacer along with the de spacer to compensate the ~1/4 difference. so i should be good with the ve pump spacer and pulley on a de correct?

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    That all sounds correct, yes. If you have the VE oil pump drive collar, then you don't need the G-spec spacer.

 

 
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