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  1. #1
    Endless Spinning
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    Default Detonation or Timing Chain? (Dyno Video)

    As title says...what do you think the rattling noise is in the video?? detonation or timing chain or other? Why it might be timing chain? Because it's known to be loose. The sound is also quite loud. People there thought it was the timing chain, but wanted to see what others thought.





    -G
    Last edited by gomba; 10-25-11 at 07:54 PM.
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  2. #2
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    Thoughts?
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  3. #3
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    doesnt sound like timing chain
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  4. #4
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    Need to get a closer vid from where it's coming from. Otherwise I can't tell..
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    I call detonation.

  6. #6
    Endless Spinning
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne View Post
    Need to get a closer vid from where it's coming from. Otherwise I can't tell..
    no more videos exist
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  7. #7
    The Repair Man
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    check the plugs that sounds like detonation. What did the dyno graph look like.
    Mike
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by cortrim1 View Post
    check the plugs that sounds like detonation. What did the dyno graph look like.
    I checked the plugs(a day or so after dyno..cold)..nothing seemed out of the ordinary. Gap was still the same on all 4 and no odd coloring.

    It was quite audible. I heard it inside the car during the dyno and it's very noticeable on the video. I've been hearing this for a while, but wasn't so aware of it until the car was on a dyno in a closed space(easier to hear). I also wasn't sure what it was, I thought at first it was my boost solenoid clicking on and off but after hearing it it's either timing chain or pinging..I'd guess if it's been pinging this loud for so long my engine would pretty much be destroyed by now (it may be :/)

    idk what boost this was at..my BC was all fucked up..dyno was a waste of money..maybe 12-15psi.

    Last edited by gomba; 10-25-11 at 04:37 PM.
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  9. #9
    The Repair Man
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    you need a graph that does not have the smoothing set to 5. This covers up detonation. Depending on the ecu timing will be pulled which make the graph have dips where the detonation is happening. check the plugs for black specs or divots around the electrode.
    Mike
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  10. #10
    The Repair Man
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    I had some detonation on my last motor but it was not audible. I knew it was there by reading the plugs. I verified the issue on the dyno and found I was running a little lean. I saw the result when I pulled the motor apart. piston 1 and 3 had spots on the edges.
    Mike
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by cortrim1 View Post
    you need a graph that does not have the smoothing set to 5. This covers up detonation. Depending on the ecu timing will be pulled which make the graph have dips where the detonation is happening. check the plugs for black specs or divots around the electrode.
    I think smoothing 0 will show ridges on any graph. Oddly enough it got rid of the sharp 'bump' at the very end of the graph. here ya go:

    Quote Originally Posted by cortrim1 View Post
    I had some detonation on my last motor but it was not audible. I knew it was there by reading the plugs. I verified the issue on the dyno and found I was running a little lean. I saw the result when I pulled the motor apart. piston 1 and 3 had spots on the edges.
    Ya that's what makes me think it's the chain as it's so loud. You can hear the chain rattling at idle.


    Last edited by gomba; 10-25-11 at 04:53 PM.
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  12. #12
    The Repair Man
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    if the timing chain is the issue then replace the timing chain tensioner. I would also remove the guide cover that sits over the chain between the cams.
    Mike
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  13. #13
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    Nah, it doesnt sound like detonation. Detonation is more like a rocks in a can type sound and you would definitely hear it. It almost sounds the same pitch tone as your bov when it released almost like the bov may be fluttering open and leaking boost.

    Doesnt sound like chain either. Not likely to have that type of sound at high revs under load. Chain is much more high pitched as well when its hitting the guide and so on.

    If your plugs looked fine without any pitting or anything and a/f was good across the board during the dyno, im gonna say its the bov leaking.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashtonsser View Post
    Nah, it doesnt sound like detonation. Detonation is more like a rocks in a can type sound and you would definitely hear it. It almost sounds the same pitch tone as your bov when it released almost like the bov may be fluttering open and leaking boost.

    Doesnt sound like chain either. Not likely to have that type of sound at high revs under load. Chain is much more high pitched as well when its hitting the guide and so on.

    If your plugs looked fine without any pitting or anything and a/f was good across the board during the dyno, im gonna say its the bov leaking.
    I think it definitely was a metallic sound..listen to the clip again, are we listening to the same sounds/stuff? There's supposedly a few more videos of the other 2 runs my friend shot, so hopefully I can get those up as well for more references. You can really start to hear it around :06. The BoV is a crushed 1g DSM. It could be the boost leak around the compressor housing -- we've taken it apart two times to try and seal that mofo up but with no luck. Still leaks under boost leak test. I really don't think the BoV is leaking.

    There's two things that changed since last dyno: JWT Tune and Timing Chain Tensioner. Maybe a 3rd which was attempting to seal the compressor housing.

    Car WAS running lean. The new JWT tune was running lean, but I didn't realize how lean until the day of the dyno. AFR was About 12.1-12.2 I'm in contact w/JWT to get a richer tune. I knew it was running somewhat lean, but I've always seen it around 11.7 in the past on my wideband(showed 12.1-12.2 during pulls on dyno day).

    Quote Originally Posted by cortrim1 View Post
    if the timing chain is the issue then replace the timing chain tensioner. I would also remove the guide cover that sits over the chain between the cams.
    Guide cover has been gone for over a year. I've changed the tensioner once before a few months ago, only to discover it made my issue worse. I think that's because my W10 came w/the N1 type tensioner and the new DE one I put in was too short for the already messed up timing chain. What needs to happen is to replace the entire timing chain and the two timing chain guides I will be putting the W10 one back in as soon as I get time.

    -G
    Last edited by gomba; 10-25-11 at 07:30 PM.
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  15. #15
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    just get yourself a new style tensioner from Greg and be done with it if you feel its the chain. It just really sounded like the bov tone. If you listen to the sound its the same pitch as when the bov goes off when he let off. 1G dsm bovs are notorious for leaking even when crushed and also makes them flutter like that.

    Again its hard to tell on the vid but we are listening to the same sounds. Ive heard detonation up close and that definitely doesnt sound like it. And detonation is more likely to occur at peak torque with the t2 turbos. Your a/f is slightly on the leaner side but not enough to cause issues unless your timing is too much but for jwt i doubt thats the case. Not likely to have that sound all the way through the upper rpm band.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashtonsser View Post
    just get yourself a new style tensioner from Greg and be done with it if you feel its the chain. It just really sounded like the bov tone. If you listen to the sound its the same pitch as when the bov goes off when he let off. 1G dsm bovs are notorious for leaking even when crushed and also makes them flutter like that.

    Again its hard to tell on the vid but we are listening to the same sounds. Ive heard detonation up close and that definitely doesnt sound like it. And detonation is more likely to occur at peak torque with the t2 turbos. Your a/f is slightly on the leaner side but not enough to cause issues unless your timing is too much but for jwt i doubt thats the case. Not likely to have that sound all the way through the upper rpm band.
    I tried the new DE tensioner from Greg(in the car now and during dyno runs), but it made the chain stretch issue worse. I discovered that my W10 DET came w/the N1 tensioner and I think the new DE one is too short. I'm putting the old N1 style one back in when I get time, but the chain is still loose and base 15* timing is strange. I've made a few posts in the past regarding my timing oddities.

    UPDATE: Final 2 videos have been uploaded to first post


    -G
    Last edited by gomba; 10-25-11 at 08:01 PM.
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  17. #17
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    ^agreed. Mine is NA, but I had detonation and I believe the chain has rattled since I bought the car and both happen under lower rpm; such as your in a high gear and open the throttle completely.
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  18. #18
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    I can't really hear the noise because of crappy speakers, but do you think there's a chance your cam oil rails are partially clogged? I have a noise that sounds like what you are describing and I was told it could be that.

    I also have replaced my TCT with the new one and I thought it made my noise louder too. Hmmmmm are other people having this issue too?

  19. #19
    Endless Spinning
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashtonsser View Post
    Again its hard to tell on the vid but we are listening to the same sounds. Ive heard detonation up close and that definitely doesnt sound like it. And detonation is more likely to occur at peak torque with the t2 turbos. Your a/f is slightly on the leaner side but not enough to cause issues unless your timing is too much but for jwt i doubt thats the case. Not likely to have that sound all the way through the upper rpm band.
    I really doubt it's the BOV(I wish it was). The sound in person is slightly more detailed than in the video and the sound I heard was very metallic like metal on metal sound. If there's any leak, it'd be by the compressor housing because that's a known leak during a leak test.

    If you don't think it's detonation than it must be the chain hitting something or some other strangeness.

    -G
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  20. #20
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    if you dont have the upper guide then take your valve cover off and see if its hitting the valve cover. You would have to have some serious stretch to hit the valve cover but i have seen it but with the upgraded tensioner i highly doubt it. The new tensioner is pretty strong and is plenty long enough that even with stretch should have no issues tensioning your chain properly.

    Again id have to hear it in person to be sure. The sound is too distorted.
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  21. #21
    Endless Spinning
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashtonsser View Post
    if you dont have the upper guide then take your valve cover off and see if its hitting the valve cover. You would have to have some serious stretch to hit the valve cover but i have seen it but with the upgraded tensioner i highly doubt it. The new tensioner is pretty strong and is plenty long enough that even with stretch should have no issues tensioning your chain properly.

    Again id have to hear it in person to be sure. The sound is too distorted.
    I think my car is a special case for whatever reason. As I've posted in the past(Strange Dyno Graph..Dip + Missing WHP (Updated: ECUTALK logs)), to get my car to 15* base timing I have to turn the distributor almost all the way advanced and I've confirmed countless times that my cam timing is spot on. I do have scoring on the underside of the VC.

    Maybe I should re-install the chain guide?

    Either the chain is stretched or the guides are somehow messed up. Whatever is going on isn't normal. I think the whole timing chain assembly needs repair.

    -G
    Last edited by gomba; 10-25-11 at 10:48 PM.
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  22. #22
    Hmmm...what goes here?
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    Every time at startup before each of the dynos the timing chain tensioner clattered as well...
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SENTRASER View Post
    Every time at startup before each of the dynos the timing chain tensioner clattered as well...
    Ya and I only started noticing this when I installed the new tensioner.
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