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  1. #1
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    Default Ignition Timing Tuning Questions.

    Random Blabbering:
    I have the AEM EMS and the base map runs good for now.

    I will be tuning my A/F ratio's first then I need to do my ignition timing. With this being said could someone who really knows dyno tuning give me some pointers. (I fully understand this is a street tune and there are thousands of variables, but like everyone I would like to give it a shot).

    I have a fast reading datalogged egt sensor on cyl 4 to monitor the temperatures.

    Questions:
    Q1: Now what target temperature am I trying to hit for safe map on 91 octane sr20det t3/t4 turbo, stock block.

    Q2: If someone has a picture of a tuned AEM MAP for sr20det stock block pump gas with t3/t4 turbo just so I can compare to see if I am out to lunch. Could you please post this up.

    Q3: Do you have any tricks that could help my learning curve IE. you should put in +2 degrees timing before boost hits to help spin up the turbo etc... <-- I just made that up as you can tell.

    Thanks,
    Last edited by gorillam; 08-17-12 at 04:17 PM.

  2. #2
    The Repair Man
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    if this is your first time take to a professional. Poor tuning causes things to go boom. btw I run aem and I can set it up but take it to a pro for tuning.
    Mike
    92 SE-R SR20VE-T 6262 Powered 535whp and 380lbft @22psi
    http://www.cardomain.com/id/cortrim1
    http://www.av-engineered.com/

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by cortrim1 View Post
    if this is your first time take to a professional. Poor tuning causes things to go boom. btw I run aem and I can set it up but take it to a pro for tuning.
    agreed, start with a PRO... get it running right before you go messing about and hurting your motor
    N14GTI-VVL - RIP - Best Qtr: 13.147 @ 99mph 1.87 60'
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  4. #4
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    Which base map did you use?
    1992 NX2000 - GTX28 - RS6
    Coming soon - Hardtop NX2000 - Roller rocker


  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by unijabnx2000 View Post
    Which base map did you use?
    I am using the AEM base map and changed the injectors.

  6. #6
    The Repair Man
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    also you really can't tune with egt numbers unless you read all four cylinders.
    Mike
    92 SE-R SR20VE-T 6262 Powered 535whp and 380lbft @22psi
    http://www.cardomain.com/id/cortrim1
    http://www.av-engineered.com/

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by gorillam View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by unijabnx2000 View Post
    Which base map did you use?
    I am using the AEM base map and changed the injectors.
    yes... which one
    1992 NX2000 - GTX28 - RS6
    Coming soon - Hardtop NX2000 - Roller rocker


  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by cortrim1 View Post
    if this is your first time take to a professional. Poor tuning causes things to go boom. btw I run aem and I can set it up but take it to a pro for tuning.
    You didn't help answer my questions, what if I had two spare motors and I am very interested in becoming a pro at tuning and I need to start somewhere, would you respond like you did, well then what EGT temp do you tune for?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by unijabnx2000 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gorillam View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by unijabnx2000 View Post
    Which base map did you use?
    I am using the AEM base map and changed the injectors.
    yes... which one

    S13 SR20DET
    MAP SENSOR
    INTAKE AIR SENSOR
    FMIC etc...
    550cc

    That one. I am at work and don't have the map # handy.

    Thanks,
    Andrew

  10. #10
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    Is this a RWD or FWD SR20?
    1992 NX2000 - GTX28 - RS6
    Coming soon - Hardtop NX2000 - Roller rocker


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by cortrim1 View Post
    also you really can't tune with egt numbers unless you read all four cylinders.
    I have the probe in the hottest cylinder so I fail to see why you can't tune for the maximum temp in the hottest cylinder. The coldest cylinder won't give my much info.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by unijabnx2000 View Post
    Is this a RWD or FWD SR20?

    This is going no where, do they make a fwd s13?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by gorillam View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cortrim1 View Post
    also you really can't tune with egt numbers unless you read all four cylinders.
    I have the probe in the hottest cylinder so I fail to see why you can't tune for the maximum temp in the hottest cylinder. The coldest cylinder won't give my much info.
    you cant always use that guideline.
    What if one of your injectors is not flowing like the others and its not giving as much fuel as the others? Just saying your logic is flawed.
    1992 NX2000 - GTX28 - RS6
    Coming soon - Hardtop NX2000 - Roller rocker


  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by gorillam View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by unijabnx2000 View Post
    Is this a RWD or FWD SR20?

    This is going no where, do they make a fwd s13?
    just b/c you are using the S13 base map doesnt mean anything definitive. I used settings in my tune from the S15... but i still have a FWD SR20 engine..

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by unijabnx2000 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gorillam View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cortrim1 View Post
    also you really can't tune with egt numbers unless you read all four cylinders.
    I have the probe in the hottest cylinder so I fail to see why you can't tune for the maximum temp in the hottest cylinder. The coldest cylinder won't give my much info.
    you cant always use that guideline.
    What if one of your injectors is not flowing like the others and its not giving as much fuel as the others? Just saying your logic is flawed.
    That is a good point, I did not think of that.

    How-ever if I take my car to a dyno and I only had one cylinder drilled and tapped, are they going to drill/tap every single cylinder and attach a probe in all? Or are they going to tune for the one I have?

  16. #16
    The Repair Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by gorillam View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cortrim1 View Post
    if this is your first time take to a professional. Poor tuning causes things to go boom. btw I run aem and I can set it up but take it to a pro for tuning.
    You didn't help answer my questions, what if I had two spare motors and I am very interested in becoming a pro at tuning and I need to start somewhere, would you respond like you did, well then what EGT temp do you tune for?
    First off forget using the egt numbers. Unless you read all four cylinders. the reading from one cylinder only tells you what is happening in that one cylinder. You can use the egt as a reference along with the af ratio. I tune by load,tps and afr. The aem tuning guide is a good place to start. You can also take efi classes which is what I would do. Learning the hard way by blowing stuff up gets expensive quick.
    Mike
    92 SE-R SR20VE-T 6262 Powered 535whp and 380lbft @22psi
    http://www.cardomain.com/id/cortrim1
    http://www.av-engineered.com/

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by gorillam View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by unijabnx2000 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gorillam View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cortrim1 View Post
    also you really can't tune with egt numbers unless you read all four cylinders.
    I have the probe in the hottest cylinder so I fail to see why you can't tune for the maximum temp in the hottest cylinder. The coldest cylinder won't give my much info.
    you cant always use that guideline.
    What if one of your injectors is not flowing like the others and its not giving as much fuel as the others? Just saying your logic is flawed.
    That is a good point, I did not think of that.

    How-ever if I take my car to a dyno and I only had one cylinder drilled and tapped, are they going to drill/tap every single cylinder and attach a probe in all? Or are they going to tune for the one I have?
    they make clamp on bands with a type k thermo couple. they mount on the outside of the manifold. The only issue with that is you must know the formula for the metal of the manifold so you can figure out the internal gas temp from a external manifold reading.
    Mike
    92 SE-R SR20VE-T 6262 Powered 535whp and 380lbft @22psi
    http://www.cardomain.com/id/cortrim1
    http://www.av-engineered.com/

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by cortrim1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gorillam View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cortrim1 View Post
    if this is your first time take to a professional. Poor tuning causes things to go boom. btw I run aem and I can set it up but take it to a pro for tuning.
    You didn't help answer my questions, what if I had two spare motors and I am very interested in becoming a pro at tuning and I need to start somewhere, would you respond like you did, well then what EGT temp do you tune for?
    First off forget using the egt numbers. Unless you read all four cylinders. the reading from one cylinder only tells you what is happening in that one cylinder. You can use the egt as a reference along with the af ratio. I tune by load,tps and afr. The aem tuning guide is a good place to start. You can also take efi classes which is what I would do. Learning the hard way by blowing stuff up gets expensive quick.
    Absolutely agreed, I will definitely have a read on the aem guide. What EFI classes would you recommend?

    About the clamp on EGT sensor, I guess you could just compare the clamp on egt reading to the probe and adjust the factor and know what the temp inside is. the only problem with reading the outside of the tube is there will be a significant temperature difference from the metal heat soaking across the welded joints will be different, as well as if the pipes are not identical in shape they will all head differently, ie bends and straight sections.

    Cool tools though!


    Thanks.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by unijabnx2000 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gorillam View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by unijabnx2000 View Post
    Is this a RWD or FWD SR20?

    This is going no where, do they make a fwd s13?
    just b/c you are using the S13 base map doesnt mean anything definitive. I used settings in my tune from the S15... but i still have a FWD SR20 engine..
    Ok so now you know everything about the car, do you have some ignition timing tips?

  20. #20
    MunkyW3rkz Racing
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    EGT temps? you dont tune for EGT temps you can use it as a safe guard to prevent going lean/HOT/detation which all ties in

    your A/F will read your overall air/fuel ratio, once you set your A/F you can start with timing

    EGT can give you a idea as to when you are knocking however that will vary from motor to motor as the batch of the cast pistons can go either way.
    i like street tunes as i have had a few street tuned but unless you have a good knock detection system to get the best, safe, power set up a dyno is the way to go.

    if you insist on go forward i will suggest you leave the timing as is tune your A/F then take it to a dyno and rent it for a hour or 2 and play with the timing. once you see what your timing is doing to the motor with every pull you will see in the graph once torque starts dropping you will know you are around where it wants to be.

    basic rule of thumb is -2degrees for every lb of boost during ramping.
    595whp 424ft lbs
    E85 6266
    Sr20det S13 coupe
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by gorillam View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by unijabnx2000 View Post

    just b/c you are using the S13 base map doesnt mean anything definitive. I used settings in my tune from the S15... but i still have a FWD SR20 engine..
    Ok so now you know everything about the car, do you have some ignition timing tips?
    I was just trying to figure out what your setup is. All you put in the first post was sr20det and aem
    Last edited by unijabnx2000; 08-17-12 at 04:52 PM.
    1992 NX2000 - GTX28 - RS6
    Coming soon - Hardtop NX2000 - Roller rocker


  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by unijabnx2000 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gorillam View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by unijabnx2000 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gorillam View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by unijabnx2000 View Post
    Is this a RWD or FWD SR20?

    This is going no where, do they make a fwd s13?
    just b/c you are using the S13 base map doesnt mean anything definitive. I used settings in my tune from the S15... but i still have a FWD SR20 engine..
    Ok so now you know everything about the car, do you have some ignition timing tips?
    I was just trying to figure out what your setup is. All you in the first post was sr20det and aem
    I just didn't expect to get bombarded with everyone's question lol sorry, I should have posted more about the car. I am really just looking for pointers and general theory/good reads on how to tune ign timing for an sr20.

  23. #23
    The Repair Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by gorillam View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cortrim1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gorillam View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cortrim1 View Post
    if this is your first time take to a professional. Poor tuning causes things to go boom. btw I run aem and I can set it up but take it to a pro for tuning.
    You didn't help answer my questions, what if I had two spare motors and I am very interested in becoming a pro at tuning and I need to start somewhere, would you respond like you did, well then what EGT temp do you tune for?
    First off forget using the egt numbers. Unless you read all four cylinders. the reading from one cylinder only tells you what is happening in that one cylinder. You can use the egt as a reference along with the af ratio. I tune by load,tps and afr. The aem tuning guide is a good place to start. You can also take efi classes which is what I would do. Learning the hard way by blowing stuff up gets expensive quick.
    Absolutely agreed, I will definitely have a read on the aem guide. What EFI classes would you recommend?

    About the clamp on EGT sensor, I guess you could just compare the clamp on egt reading to the probe and adjust the factor and know what the temp inside is. the only problem with reading the outside of the tube is there will be a significant temperature difference from the metal heat soaking across the welded joints will be different, as well as if the pipes are not identical in shape they will all head differently, ie bends and straight sections.

    Cool tools though!


    Thanks.
    efi 101, efi 102 and aem tuning. these are offered from the efi university. Like you I would like the further my understanding of tuning so I can do every thing myself.

    Best of luck with your endeavor



    EFI University - Electronic Fuel Injection Tuning, Training and Certification
    Last edited by cortrim1; 08-17-12 at 04:51 PM.
    Mike
    92 SE-R SR20VE-T 6262 Powered 535whp and 380lbft @22psi
    http://www.cardomain.com/id/cortrim1
    http://www.av-engineered.com/

  24. #24
    The Repair Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by gorillam View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by unijabnx2000 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gorillam View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by unijabnx2000 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gorillam View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by unijabnx2000 View Post
    Is this a RWD or FWD SR20?

    This is going no where, do they make a fwd s13?
    just b/c you are using the S13 base map doesnt mean anything definitive. I used settings in my tune from the S15... but i still have a FWD SR20 engine..
    Ok so now you know everything about the car, do you have some ignition timing tips?
    I was just trying to figure out what your setup is. All you in the first post was sr20det and aem
    I just didn't expect to get bombarded with everyone's question lol sorry, I should have posted more about the car. I am really just looking for pointers and general theory/good reads on how to tune ign timing for an sr20.
    btw if you look in the tuning section of the forum you will see some timing maps.
    Mike
    92 SE-R SR20VE-T 6262 Powered 535whp and 380lbft @22psi
    http://www.cardomain.com/id/cortrim1
    http://www.av-engineered.com/

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by cortrim1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gorillam View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cortrim1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gorillam View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cortrim1 View Post
    if this is your first time take to a professional. Poor tuning causes things to go boom. btw I run aem and I can set it up but take it to a pro for tuning.
    You didn't help answer my questions, what if I had two spare motors and I am very interested in becoming a pro at tuning and I need to start somewhere, would you respond like you did, well then what EGT temp do you tune for?
    First off forget using the egt numbers. Unless you read all four cylinders. the reading from one cylinder only tells you what is happening in that one cylinder. You can use the egt as a reference along with the af ratio. I tune by load,tps and afr. The aem tuning guide is a good place to start. You can also take efi classes which is what I would do. Learning the hard way by blowing stuff up gets expensive quick.
    Absolutely agreed, I will definitely have a read on the aem guide. What EFI classes would you recommend?

    About the clamp on EGT sensor, I guess you could just compare the clamp on egt reading to the probe and adjust the factor and know what the temp inside is. the only problem with reading the outside of the tube is there will be a significant temperature difference from the metal heat soaking across the welded joints will be different, as well as if the pipes are not identical in shape they will all head differently, ie bends and straight sections.

    Cool tools though!


    Thanks.
    efi 101, efi 102 and aem tuning. these are offered from the efi university. Like you I would like the further my understanding of tuning so I can do every thing myself.

    Best of luck with your endeavor



    EFI University - Electronic Fuel Injection Tuning, Training and Certification
    That's exactly what I need, I don't really like to master anything completely I like to know just enough to understand what is going on, and be able to adjust settings if there are different' situations ie. different track conditions etc..

    I would hate to take my car to a dyno, spend a fortune and not be able to change anything myself.

  26. #26
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    Well im just learning myself, but his would be bad








    This would be better

    1992 NX2000 - GTX28 - RS6
    Coming soon - Hardtop NX2000 - Roller rocker


  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by unijabnx2000 View Post
    Well im just learning myself, but his would be bad








    This would be better

    LOL holy F**** that is bad, that would be like riding the bull at the bar lol!

  28. #28
    MunkyW3rkz Racing
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    seeing that graph reminds me why i love E85 lol i did a double take on the timing map lol
    595whp 424ft lbs
    E85 6266
    Sr20det S13 coupe
    MunkyW3rkz Racing

  29. #29
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    The point is to get a timing map as smooth as possible. The smoother it is the better the AEM can make the changes. If it has to constantly jump around your timing will be so far all over the place that your asking for problems.

    Also, key on boosted motors is to have the timing lower at your peak torque and then slowly raise timing as you approach redline. As the motor turns faster it will require more timing to keep the power up.

    Ill post my timing map later.
    1992 Nissan Sentra SE-R - Fully Built SR20VE, BWS400SX Billet 67mm and much more
    JMS Racing tuned to 716whp, 423wtq at 29psi
    10.5 @ 149.2mph to date I believe the fastest trap speed SE-R, Much more to come with some changes!

  30. #30
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  31. #31
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    Dont got a pic of my timing map with the 3-D graph. Ill try to get one later.
    Last edited by ashtonsser; 08-19-12 at 10:37 AM.
    1992 Nissan Sentra SE-R - Fully Built SR20VE, BWS400SX Billet 67mm and much more
    JMS Racing tuned to 716whp, 423wtq at 29psi
    10.5 @ 149.2mph to date I believe the fastest trap speed SE-R, Much more to come with some changes!

  32. #32
    MunkyW3rkz Racing
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    here is mine
    do not attempt this sort of timing on your motor.
    mine is you can say aggressive lol
    595whp 424ft lbs
    E85 6266
    Sr20det S13 coupe
    MunkyW3rkz Racing

  33. #33
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    Once I get my timing/cas issue fixed

    I'll be going with this
    1992 NX2000 - GTX28 - RS6
    Coming soon - Hardtop NX2000 - Roller rocker


 

 

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