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  1. #1
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    Default P11 Auto-X Setup help

    I am having some difficulty deciding what to do next with spring rates.
    I currently have Tein SS with Eibach 8" 600lb springs up front and the 7" tein 400lb est. in the rear all mount on custom top hats.

    Front sway bar is stock and a addco sway bar in the rear all with custom rod end links. Front bar has an extra an extra hole drilled further back for a bit more resistance and the rear is also adjustable.

    My problem is that I feel the car still has a bit to much body roll and can be better, my idea is to get some 800lb 7" front springs(8" will be to tall, front coild are at its lowest setting) and use the 600lb for the rear. and to lower it maybe another 1/2" to an 1". photo for height reference:


    Is this too much of a spread between the rates and is the 800lb too stiff?(not worried about street comfort here). Currently it feels fairly neutral with some understeer so with the 800/600 the feeling should feel similar just stiffer overall. Or would a 650/600 work better?

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    Are the Tein SS valved for those stiffer spring rates?

    Addco makes a rear bar for a 91-96 P10. They do not have one for a P11. I do not know what rear bar you have, but it is not Addco. Take pictures, please.

    The front bar you said is drilled, how is it drilled in relation to the mounting part for the end? In other words, is the custom drilled hole closer to the ends of the bar or closer to where the bar begins to bend to go around the chassis parts? This influences stiffness and is rather important.

    To further clarify, this is USDM P11, right?

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    to answer your questions:
    1. This is a JDM P11.

    2. The SS are not re-valved for the springs rates but they feel good and are note bouncy other than I have stiffer springs and would normally be a harder ride. the 800lbs may be pushing it though but not sure.

    3.The rear sway bar was for a maxima. can't really recall if addco but it is 20mm solid bar. and it is mount like on a solid axle on the chevy, fords.etc.:
    The pics i have of the bar, no full pics:



    4.Front Sway bar is drilled closer to wher it starts to bend. so mounting it on the custom hole would stiffen the bar. making it 3 way adjustable.
    Last edited by cayman_primera; 11-14-12 at 05:04 PM.

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    I'm not really well versed in P11's yet, but if I had to guess my answers would be:

    800 isn't too high for a caged car. Without a cage, you're probably turning the whole tub into a spring. point of comparision, my NX is on 500/600 and I can feel my bolt-in autopower move independent from the body. You also need better dampers. The Teins just don't have the rebound. Depending on your rules package, consider a clutchpack diff. that will allow the use of a bigger front bar. I'd also look at more rear spring also.
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  5. #5
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    Some other issues with the rear of the P11.

    The link, Scott-Russel link connects the chassis to the beam. Upon compression, it actually forces the wheels to move horizontally upon extreme lowering or compression whatever you want to call it. This makes the car "dog-track" where the rear wheels no longer follow the front wheels. It creates an unbalanced car since it will now handle differently in left hand and right hand turns. Also, the rear has static camber and toe and the toe-in the car has hurts its ability to rotate. Sometimes, a few have bent the rear beam to zero toe using a railroad iron tie, three brackets, some strong chain, and a hydraulic jack.

    I rather like that rear sway bar installation. I can see the welds are a bit squiggly, was that your idea or someone else? Did you buy the car like that? This is the proper way to attach a rear sway bar on the beam-based suspension.

    Along with everything @Blair said. Those little Teins are not helping those stiff springs so you are mostly riding on springs.

    I think one company, Tanabe has made a Primera P10/P11 front sway bar. I can't find one, let me know if you can.

    The front, there is someone who makes shortened Upper Control Arms to gain more negative camber to better utilize the tire contact patch under heavy/heard cornering. LoCo Performance | Select Parts for Select Vehicles E-mail him, he has lots of goodies.

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    All very great ideas, the teins are ready for a refresh or maybe even swap out completely. Would it be worth it to send them to get revalved or should i setup a custom koni G/C coilover sleeve type thing?

    @Blair, I know what you mean about the chassis flex, just from jacking up the car in the front the rears doors are harder to close, I do plan on doing some under chassis bracing like this:

    well maybe not that much but basically the braces that run down the entire length. Not sure if a cage is in the budget right now, and the good thing with our rules are they are very open right now, only the tires decide what class you are in

    Do you think a b14 rear roll cage can be modified to fit?

    @Kyle, I came up with this idea when i actually saw a chevy trial blazer driving in front and I saw how the sway bar was setup. If its good for OEM then its good for me! plus a lot of research with american cars made me see that this was a very common setup and it makes the sway bar a lot more responsive. The welds are pretty bad. had to do it with the car on jack stands so could not get good angles to weld. i will be re-doing the links shortly and the mounts.

    Not sure if neg. camber would help much with the auto-x, right now the tires do not roll much, i normally mark the sidewalls to see how much they roll and i am happy with it, might take away some of my traction being turbo n all.

    I have another P11 that I can salvage the beam from to do the bending thing incase it gets messed up because you can tell on my sway bar mounts just behind the exhaust how much movement you are describing.

    Well, the next and last event for the year is this weekend, and then I have a couple of months to change some stuff up, I may just try out the 800lb spring and bracing to see where i am at. I like to try stuff out one thing at a time to really feel the difference if any then follow up on the dampers. or if i can find a front bar then get a 650lb spring and go from there.

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    I think USDM and JDM rear suspension are same, but EUDM is different. We dont have that problem. Mostly stock P11 works awesome in terms of handling, balance, corner speed... very neutral to oversteer feeling. Almost zero understeer.

    I dont think any sway bars actually help. Id rather do new bushings, joints, etc. I dont feel changing springs on coilovers. Also stiffer doesnt means better. Front negative definately helps turn-in... but as your car is lowered it can be all messed up. Is you car turboed? Thats extra weight in front, torque-steer,...

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    It is turbo so yea, more heavy up front and torque steer, all the good stuff.lol I use 235 40 17 R1Rs up front for help with traction, might go up a size to 245 next time and see how it goes.

    When I changed the front springs to 600lb it help a lot, did not have any problems with travel at the lowest settings, used a zip tie to measure travel on stret driving and I have at the least 1/2" left. thats street driving with all the big bumps and bangs, so I am very confident in the travel when doing auto-x.

    my idea is to get a stiffer spring and go even lower. honestly with the couple changes i did this month, this final event will help me decide what i want to do from how the car will perform. If it does great then I may just look at other areas of intrest.

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    I forgot to ask what tires you are using. My head automatically thinks Hoosiers, and somtimes I forget about the rest of the world. It *is* possible to be over sprung for the tires. (My NX is terrifying on street tires.)
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    Ahh, makes sense. I right now i use 235 Toyo R1R up front and 225 potenza re050 not the run flat. got the toyos and the potenzas, i know mixing like that is good for balance because of different grip levels but they seem to work well as is. If i use R compund or less than 140 treadwear then I will be in the unlimited category. If I did not use this as my daily then i would actualy like to see how it does with stickier tires. I can see where the effect of the stiffer spring would be greater on the track(race course) than auto-x. we run in a tight space a barely see 60mph

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    Here is a quick video just to give you an idea of how the car runs and how tight the course is setup. this is with a sr18(long ratios) open diff gearbox.



    Last edited by cayman_primera; 11-15-12 at 09:25 AM.

  12. #12
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    Judging by those videos, your front tires are constantly being over worked in corners. I can hear them screaming first immediately which means stiffen the rear, conversely, loosen the front, in whatever way you want.

    That open diff is certainly killing your ability to put the turbo power to the ground.

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    As well as I had the 235 tires on 7" wide wheels which was horrible. maybe why the tires do what they did in those runs. they are now on 8" wheels and are 100 times better. I had to run 45psi in the tires before to get any repsonse and lessen the roll when on the 7" wheels. My camera was acting up and could not record any runs of the most recent one. i hope to get some this weekend.

    I install a p11 lsd GB last week so that has been dealt with. need to save up for an aftermarket diff though since this one has seen better days. but that to be added to the bottom of the list because of cost.
    Last edited by cayman_primera; 11-15-12 at 09:45 AM.

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    Suspension-wise, lose the front bar, increase the rear rate and decrease the front rate. If you haven't already, have the ream beam bent to zero toe. You shouldn't be so much concerned with body roll as you should be with chassis rotation, or the lack there of, in your case. Plowing through turns and getting on the gas late in the turns is the slow way around. When taking those 90 and 180 degree turns in the video, your car should want to oversteer the entire way around the turn. If you're not finishing it with a slight counter steer at corner exit, it isn't rotating enough. 45psi cold is too high. You're actually decreasing contact patch at those pressures. Start @ 38F 32R and tune from there. In wet conditions, lower works better...like sub 30's.

    The other glaring issue I see is your car's power delivery. It's either on or off. It's either roasting the tires or bogging. If you're serious about improving times, I'd look at lowering the power or somehow make it more linear.
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    S62...huh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hammerin hank View Post
    Suspension-wise, lose the front bar, increase the rear rate and decrease the front rate. If you haven't already, have the ream beam bent to zero toe. You shouldn't be so much concerned with body roll as you should be with chassis rotation, or the lack there of, in your case. Plowing through turns and getting on the gas late in the turns is the slow way around. When taking those 90 and 180 degree turns in the video, your car should want to oversteer the entire way around the turn. If you're not finishing it with a slight counter steer at corner exit, it isn't rotating enough. 45psi cold is too high. You're actually decreasing contact patch at those pressures. Start @ 38F 32R and tune from there. In wet conditions, lower works better...like sub 30's.

    The other glaring issue I see is your car's power delivery. It's either on or off. It's either roasting the tires or bogging. If you're serious about improving times, I'd look at lowering the power or somehow make it more linear.
    Loving the feedback guys, a lot of information here, cant thank u all enough. Gonna work on the beam for next year. i have a parts p11 that I can take out the beam to work on. I can disconnect the fsb and test it out, do you think it would be worth swaping the springs, as in using the 600lb in the back and the 400lb in the front?

    I only used 45 when i had the 7" wheels, with the 8" wheels i am around those numbers. I might have used 36 last time when i was open diff. Will try it with ur numbers this weekend.

    IMO the power delivery is fairly linear, but at that event with the open diff and long final drive ratio did not match so I had to hold out with the power and in turns the inside wheel just lights up with little power. i have a GT28 BB turbo from a S15 silvia so it has good power delivery. I just could not use the power as you can see. So it does seem that the power band is spikey.

    My butt dyno tells me that peak power is somewhere between 3800 and 4500.
    i will get my camera working for this event to have some good comparison videos before and afer the GB swap.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by cayman_primera View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hammerin hank View Post
    Suspension-wise, lose the front bar, increase the rear rate and decrease the front rate. If you haven't already, have the ream beam bent to zero toe. You shouldn't be so much concerned with body roll as you should be with chassis rotation, or the lack there of, in your case. Plowing through turns and getting on the gas late in the turns is the slow way around. When taking those 90 and 180 degree turns in the video, your car should want to oversteer the entire way around the turn. If you're not finishing it with a slight counter steer at corner exit, it isn't rotating enough. 45psi cold is too high. You're actually decreasing contact patch at those pressures. Start @ 38F 32R and tune from there. In wet conditions, lower works better...like sub 30's.

    The other glaring issue I see is your car's power delivery. It's either on or off. It's either roasting the tires or bogging. If you're serious about improving times, I'd look at lowering the power or somehow make it more linear.
    Loving the feedback guys, a lot of information here, cant thank u all enough. Gonna work on the beam for next year. i have a parts p11 that I can take out the beam to work on. I can disconnect the fsb and test it out, do you think it would be worth swaping the springs, as in using the 600lb in the back and the 400lb in the front?

    I only used 45 when i had the 7" wheels, with the 8" wheels i am around those numbers. I might have used 36 last time when i was open diff. Will try it with ur numbers this weekend.

    IMO the power delivery is fairly linear, but at that event with the open diff and long final drive ratio did not match so I had to hold out with the power and in turns the inside wheel just lights up with little power. i have a GT28 BB turbo from a S15 silvia so it has good power delivery. I just could not use the power as you can see. So it does seem that the power band is spikey.

    My butt dyno tells me that peak power is somewhere between 3800 and 4500.
    i will get my camera working for this event to have some good comparison videos before and afer the GB swap.
    Swap the springs and see what happens. Just make sure they are they same diameter and length before you do so.
    S62...huh?

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    The current front springs are 8" tall and 2.5" dia, the rears are the original Front tein springs, 7" tall and 2.5". The original rear spring is a 8" spring so should fit if I use the oem top hat. I will give this a try.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cayman_primera View Post
    The current front springs are 8" tall and 2.5" dia, the rears are the original Front tein springs, 7" tall and 2.5". The original rear spring is a 8" spring so should fit if I use the oem top hat. I will give this a try.
    Some other tuning things you can do once the springs are sorted are alignment settings and ride height. If you need more bite in the front put negative camber on the front using Kyle's hook up. Start @ zero toe and move in the direction of a little tow out if you need more turn in. Since you have CO's, having the car corner balanced would also something to look into if you're looking to get the most out of the car.

    The other thing to look into are lighter wheels than what you have in the picture. That's make a huge difference. The whole car will feel lighter including the steering response. That's a big advantage when you're tossing it in the tight stuff.


    Edit: Corrected comment about camber plates on a P11....doh!
    Last edited by hammerin hank; 11-15-12 at 07:42 PM.
    S62...huh?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammerin hank View Post
    Some other tuning things you can do once the springs are sorted are alignment settings and ride height. If you need more bite in the front get some camber plates and put 2-3 degrees negative on the front. Start @ zero toe and move in the direction of a little tow out if you need more turn in. Since you have CO's, having the car corner balanced would also something to look into if you're looking to get the most out of the car.

    The other thing to look into are lighter wheels than what you have in the picture. That's make a huge difference. The whole car will feel lighter including the steering response. That's a big advantage when you're tossing it in the tight stuff.
    P11 has no struts therefore camber plates are out of the equation.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle View Post

    P11 has no struts therefore camber plates are out of the equation.
    Post corrected....p11's blah!
    Last edited by hammerin hank; 11-15-12 at 07:44 PM.
    S62...huh?

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    Ye camber adjustment sucks, basically none. either you go it or you don't. I might not have the time to get the springs swaped before this event on sunday, Working late tomorrow and on most of the day Saturday. Sucks. might just do it after any way. got 2 weeks vacation starting Monday, so a lot of time then. we don't really have a track that we can go to for testing but some spirited driving on private road before and after should be good enough.

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    Did you ever think about going back to N/A? I would do simple DE build or stock VE, 15" light wheels, mechanical LSD and you will be definately faster.
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    I have, but i have never did an event with an lsd. so i dont want to jump the gun just yet. doing another motor swap isn't in the budget either. If i do decide on a swap, it would have to be a VE. I also need to work on getting another car for daily use and i would have a lot more time to work on it rather than only weekends and small things that I can do without loosing the ride for a week.

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    Yeah, got it. You will see. Enjoy the car while its running and you will see later.

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    Alright, disconnected the front sway bar, and initial feel is a little more body roll but less understeer. for instance, going through a round about at 40-45mph with the bar on, the car will start to push(understeer) and correction method was to slow down(or left foot brake), increasing steering angle did not have much difference.. now same round about around the same speed, more roll but more steering angle corrected it so basically the rear end started to 'rotate' like you all said. so, I am leaving it off for this weekend and see how things go.
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    Yay for physics!

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    Right now, I notice the rear is a bit Higher than the front, maybe 1/2" or more. Should I just leave it or set so the height is the same all around? I remember reading somewhere that a higher rear would transfer the weight to the front more, which would mean more understeer. Correct me if I am wrong?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cayman_primera View Post
    Right now, I notice the rear is a bit Higher than the front, maybe 1/2" or more. Should I just leave it or set so the height is the same all around? I remember reading somewhere that a higher rear would transfer the weight to the front more, which would mean more understeer. Correct me if I am wrong?
    It's not as simple as that. Read this: Understanding Corner Weights: Grassroots Motorsports Magazine Articles

    If you don't have access to expensive scales, I would start the ride heights at some baseline settings and start playing around with them documenting the changes along the way. In other words, trial and error. I would use a measurement on the CO's collar relative to the threads on the CO as a way to start. You could use number of turns on the perch as a unit of measuring changes. It's obviously, not as accurate as just scaling the car, but it will get you started in the right direction.
    Last edited by hammerin hank; 11-17-12 at 10:50 AM.
    S62...huh?

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    Great info there, I do not have easy access to scales but will aim to do this for next years events. I hope my camera works. Last event for the year and I would really like something to compare to next year.

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    Well, did place all too well this time around. I think it was mostly due to my driver errors, late in the day I was then getting into a rhythm. I did connect back up the front sway bar, I guess at higher speed it felt good but once going around those cones it actually pushed more. maybe it was just me, it just felt more easier to drive with it on. As well, maybe my rear isn't "stiff" enough or the toe in really hurts the turn in. Will work on that for next year.

    As well as turning down the boost. going put it down to 8, with the lsd I feel it is the right way, before I just made up my time with brut power and slow in corners I guess.
    Last edited by cayman_primera; 11-18-12 at 08:24 PM.

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    Gonna work on the car a bit this week. Going to swap the springs around and try it out. I might end up getting some 500 or 550 lb springs instead of the 800. just use the 600 in the rear. I may have some rubbing problems in the front which was one of the other reasons why I got the 600 lb.

    Here is the vids I took inside the car: I did it mostly on low boost, 10 psi and hit the hi button when possible. not much but yea, placed like 5th overall. had some really good competition. 2 Mits Evo VIII, Honda eg civic(2nd place), Mits Evo III, Nissan Silvia S14(Teammate),p10 ve primera(teammate) and fully stripped Toyota Starlet(steet class winner), and some other nicely setup cars.
    Any advice is always welcome
    Last edited by cayman_primera; 11-20-12 at 09:52 PM.

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    I got to switch the springs around and I must say it feels way better.
    I need to make the custom top hats for the rear as well because the spring does not sit flush on the oem top hat. So the rear is up in the air and the front is way low, assuming doggy style position.


    This is the setup with the 600lb in front:


    The front is at max height, and the rear is at max low. Not sure if I should get another 8" spring or get the 7" 500lb(I am leaning on this option).
    Last edited by cayman_primera; 11-24-12 at 01:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cayman_primera View Post
    I got to switch the springs around and I must say it feels way better.
    I need to make the custom top hats for the rear as well because the spring does not sit flush on the oem top hat. So the rear is up in the air and the front is way low, assuming doggy style position.


    This is the setup with the 600lb in front:


    The front is at max height, and the rear is at max low. Not sure if I should get another 8" spring or get the 7" 500lb(I am leaning on this option).
    The spring on the right is only half way up... I assume that's the front spring? You need a spacer between the shaft lip and the top mount to get the perch all the way up. Washers work in a pinch.
    S62...huh?

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    that the picture of the old setup with the front on the left and the rears on the right. I will be making some top hats tomorrow for the rears. But basically you can see how tall the 8" spring is and with the 7" on the rears it is a bit lower than mid way so with the 8" in the rear the spring perch is at the very bottom and is high. parked next to a stock p11 and it was the same height!!

    I also fixed the front being too low. CV Joint was clunking during acceleration. Used the golden spacer that comes with the Teins SS. and placed it under my custom top hat for an added inch. now it is riding a bit high at the same setting on the perches but now I have some good adjustment on the front.
    This is the piece I am talking about:

    and placed it here with the tein(black) spring:
    Last edited by cayman_primera; 11-26-12 at 05:32 PM.

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    Made these yesterday:


    Now with around 4 threads left at the bottom it sits around 1/2" lower with another 1" to go.
    The steel plate is a little to heavy. might get some aluminum plates and make some new ones.

    I am really liking the way it feels now. Turn in is quicker and need less steering input than before. I will be testing some different settings with the sway bars and ride height and see what works best. I might even try to see if I can get some cones and record some times to have some good data between setups.

    I know now that sometimes what works good on the street does not mean it will work for auto cross.
    Thanks for the help
    Last edited by cayman_primera; 11-28-12 at 08:37 PM.

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    Just taught I would update you all on my current setup and the results.

    From last year november/december I changed the springs so that the rears are now the 600 lb springs and the stock tein ss front spring.

    After that I tackled the bushing/bearings control arms.

    Replaced UCAs and the third link bearings with brand new pieces,
    Change inner and outer tie rods
    Installed stop tech performance pads
    Mounted 255/40 17 Hankook RS3(I would recommend the RS3 for summer tires)
    Installed rear trailing arm bushing with poly bushing(WOW!, really, wow)
    Installed Godspeed racing radiator(wow is this thing big)
    Fabbed up custom screamer pipe

    The car now sits very evenly. and the rear end is very loose if you want it to be.

    The Results? Well, last year I was always 3 to 5 seconds of first place finisher(eg civic with B18 Swap). Now on the very first event with the current changes I placed ahead of him and just shy from first place at a time of 82.856 seconds and mine which was 82.875. First place was the subaru in one of the videos above I was chasing.

    All in all, the car really feels good. I am going to do more events as is to squeeze every ounce of performance and make slow changes.

    Changes ahead are Aluminum Top Hats front and rear with spherical bearings and maybe 500 lb front springs. Below are some pictures:





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  37. #37
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  38. #38
    Big kid with gray hair
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    Cool. Glad to hear the car is improving. :thumbsup:
    S62...huh?

  39. #39
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    Car has improved a lot. And the best part was mainly replacing worn out parts. No the rear seems to have more bit and I can possibly get better tires. But I need more events before I can be sure. Let me know of any ideas you all may have.

    I will be trying to brace up the car some more for additional support and more weight reduction.

  40. #40
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    Got first place by 1.1 secs on a 60/70+ seconds dexterity course. My fastest time was in the mid 65s, the subaru guy came in second. they put a 360 in the middle of the course and my handbrakes don't work a damn. Also it is very clear that i need stickier tires in the back as it swings out on heavy braking around the cones so again i could not push the braking to the limit. But this feels good at how well the car performs at this point.

    I got some pics i will be uploading soon

 

 
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